How do we raise boys into good men when the world seems confused about what a good man even is? In this episode, Paul and Andrew sit down with Shaun Dawson, host of Raising Men, to talk about modern masculinity, brotherhood, emotional safety, ego in parenting, and what boys need from the men around them.
Summary:
How do we raise boys into good men when the world seems confused about what a good man even is?
In this episode, Paul and Andrew sit down with Shaun Dawson, host of Raising Men, to talk about modern masculinity, brotherhood, emotional safety, ego in parenting, and what boys need from the men around them.
Show Notes:
How do we raise boys into good men when the world seems confused about what a good man even is?
In this episode, Paul and Andrew sit down with Shaun Dawson, host of Raising Men, to talk about modern masculinity, brotherhood, emotional safety, ego in parenting, and what boys need from the men around them.
Shaun shares a painfully relatable dad story about watching his son at basketball practice and realizing his frustration had more to do with his own ego than his son’s performance. From there, the conversation opens into a bigger question: what does it actually mean to model healthy masculinity for our kids?
We talk about:
• Why dads can get triggered when their kids struggle in public
• The difference between preparing the child for the road and clearing every obstacle
• Why men often want to open up but don’t feel safe doing it
• How brotherhood has to be rebuilt intentionally
• Why boys need worthy men around them, not just lectures about manhood
• How fathers can create a “castle” where their families can thrive
• Why cultivating excellence in our kids starts with cultivating it in ourselves
Guest:
Shaun Dawson is a husband, father of two, tech leader, and host of Raising Men, a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and raising sons into men of courage, character, and purpose.
Links:
Raising Men: https://raising.men/
About Shaun Dawson: https://raising.men/about-shaun-dawson
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1HdOjO18HibC17XnyrFOv5
Steve Biddulph: https://www.stevebiddulph.com/Site_1/Home.html
Call to Action:
If this episode made you think of a dad, uncle, coach, mentor, or friend who is trying to raise good men, send it their way. And if you’re enjoying Why, Dad?, follow the show and leave a review. It helps other dads find these conversations.
Paul (00:00)
Welcome to the Why Dad podcast. We are your hosts, Paul Wondry and Andrew Stolpelstedt, and we are on a mission to figure out what it really means to be a man, a husband, and a father. Not as experts, but as guys trying to figure it out, learning what actually matters, what's just noise, and how to become the versions of ourselves, our families need and deserve. This is a place for honest conversations, real habits, and the kind of growth that happens intentionally.
And today to help us on that mission, we're super excited to introduce our guest, Sean Dawson, host of Raising Men, husband, father of two, and a dad wrestling with a question a lot of us feel right now. How do we raise boys into good men when the world seems so confused about what a good man even is? Sean, super excited to dig into this question with you. Welcome to the show.
Shaun (00:51)
Gentlemen, thank you so much. I am honored to be here.
Andrew Stolpestad (00:52)
Yeah
We are honored to have you with us. So feeling is very mutual.
Paul (00:58)
Yes, yes indeed. you know, we like to start our episode off with a fun and light question. What is the most dad, yes, yes. If Andrew gets excited and gets in on, you know, something that the guest says, I'm like, no, no, we gotta get back to this question, which is, what is the most dad thing you've done this week?
Andrew Stolpestad (01:05)
Paul's favorite.
You
Shaun (01:19)
This week, the most dad thing I did was yesterday. Yesterday afternoon, I took my son to basketball practice and I struggle, I struggle so much with basketball practice because my poor boy doesn't know what to do. He is just like literally he'll sit there with his hand in his pockets and watch the other team try and score baskets and stuff. He just like.
Andrew Stolpestad (01:40)
You
Shaun (01:42)
Nobody has sat
him down and explained to him what to do. And I don't get frustrated about that fact until we're actually at basketball practice. I haven't put in any time. I haven't taken him to the basketball hoop. I haven't talked to him. I haven't taught him what to do. I haven't brought him out to do anything like that. I've done nothing. I've done no prep whatsoever except stick him on a fricking basketball team. And then I have the gall to get pissed off when he doesn't know what to do.
Andrew Stolpestad (01:49)
Mm-hmm.
Hahaha
Shaun (02:09)
And I get so frustrated. so yesterday, yesterday that happened also. I managed to contain myself. ended up, I ended up like taking some video and then managed to explain to him, all right, you know, here's what happened. Here's something you did really, really great. Cause I happened to get that on video and then here's something that you should think about improving on. And it ended up being a really positive conversation. But man, that, that came out of a place of real frustration.
And I had to get really creative in how to make it so that it wasn't a negative experience for him. I want him to love sports and if he's got this dad who's just like, ⁓ you gotta perform and all that stuff, that's not gonna happen.
Andrew Stolpestad (02:41)
Yeah.
Right.
Paul (02:45)
Yeah,
yeah, no, thanks for sharing with that. think that feeling is something that a lot of us dads and Andrew, probably you as an uncle even, can relate with. It's just like, just do the thing. Just grab the ball.
Andrew Stolpestad (02:54)
As an uncle, yep.
Shaun (03:00)
Yeah, he's the tallest kid by my head and
shoulders. He's the tallest kid on the team. He's only seven, but he looks like he's about nine or 10. And so there's no excuse. He should get every rebound. I'm like, why aren't you? That's your ball. Go get it. And he just, but you know, I mean, he just doesn't know where to stand. He doesn't know where to be. He's not, he's not there yet. It's my fault.
Andrew Stolpestad (03:12)
Yeah.
Paul (03:16)
Yeah. Where
do you think, where do you think like that that kind of conflict that us that you experienced there and that many of us dads experience where it's like we we we are that frustration arises from, you know?
Shaun (03:32)
Yeah,
it's ego, man. 100 % it's ego. At least, I I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself. I want to be the dad of a kid who's great at sports. I want to be the dad of a kid who's fantastic at basketball. I want that for him too. But the reason I get frustrated about it, the reason that it makes me mad and it triggers my cone in the barbarian brain, like I talk about all the time, is
Andrew Stolpestad (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (04:00)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (04:01)
is because when it's not happening, I feel like a failure deep down because I should have done that stuff. I should have gotten the basketball out and taken him out back and taught him about everything. I should have taken that time and I should have been present with him and done all those things, but I didn't. And so that means I'm a failure as a dad. And of course that doesn't, I succeed in a lot of other ways, but that's when that stares you in the face, right?
Paul (04:06)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (04:06)
Bye.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (04:23)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (04:29)
And so you get presented with that and I like to make excuses, I think. mean, internally, well, I want him to be good because I want him to be able to fit in and I want him to experience success and all that stuff. But I care more about than he does. And part of the reason I care more about than he does is because deep down, I really want it to reflect well on me. And, course, that's one of those things where it's a goal that you have to
Andrew Stolpestad (04:41)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (04:44)
Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (04:48)
Right.
Shaun (04:54)
approach obliquely or it runs away from you.
Paul (04:56)
Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate with that. Sorry, Andrew. I'll say this quick and then I'll let you go. ⁓
Andrew Stolpestad (04:57)
Eve, Eve!
I was gonna say the
same thing just as an uncle.
Shaun (05:04)
I'll bet it is, I'll bet it is
because there's pride that you have there too. And so it's, I mean, it's different, but it's not that different.
Andrew Stolpestad (05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (05:13)
Yeah, I can say that the times where I am most likely to lose my cool are times where I am parenting in a public situation. the reason is...
Shaun (05:31)
Mm.
Paul (05:36)
because I'm worried about what other people are thinking and the expectations of my child, the social expectations of my child. So all of a sudden, I'm not parenting my child according to his or her needs and according to our family values, I'm parenting according to social expectations. And then that conflict, I think, is maybe similar to that in a way where it's like, okay, hey,
Shaun (05:40)
Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (05:40)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (06:00)
You know, you want this thing, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, right? Like you want your kid to do well at sports or whatever, but then there is that conflict between like where your kid is at or where my kid is at and what truly matters.
Shaun (06:15)
Yeah, that's exactly
right. you know, mean, if you can take your ego out of it, a lot of that goes away. A lot of that pressure goes away and you get a better result too.
Andrew Stolpestad (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (06:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (06:23)
You do.
Paul (06:24)
Have to like, yeah, just have to parent kind of like in a bubble. Just pretend everybody else isn't there. It's you, you and your kid. So.
Andrew Stolpestad (06:30)
But you know what, people
are gonna see that, like the effort you put in. And I've caught myself, like as an uncle, just, you know, seeing a dad struggle. When I take my nieces and nephews to the zoo and there's another dad, they're struggling with the kid and he's keeping his cool and whatnot, and trying to help the kid through it, like it clicks my brain. Like, I see you trying, like you're doing a good job.
Shaun (06:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you're like, man, and you just kind of want to you want to hug the guy, man. You just want to nice, nice work there. I had people do that to me where I will have handled a particularly challenging situation in public and people will come up to me afterwards and man, you're really good at it hasn't happened often because the opportunities for that are few and far between for a lot of different reasons. But but yeah, and you know, that's
Andrew Stolpestad (06:55)
Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (07:08)
haha
Andrew Stolpestad (07:11)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (07:14)
If you see that happen, if you see a dad out there struggling, man, give him a pat on the back and say, good work, because we fricking need it. Yeah, this is the other thing. We don't do a good job of brotherhood. And part of the reason that I started my whole project was because of that realization. And so that's a great opportunity.
Andrew Stolpestad (07:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (07:25)
Hmm.
Shaun (07:38)
to foster a little bit of brotherhood, isn't it? You see a dad out there, he's struggling with a tough kid. Now can't go up there right there, but right when he's going through it, but after he's done, just go up there and say, hey man, I saw what you did there, great job.
Andrew Stolpestad (07:38)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (07:40)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (07:47)
Right.
Paul (07:50)
Yeah, that's a really great point. You know, like, yeah, brotherhood, community, I think today's world, know, like social media, the transactional nature of everything, of capitalism, materialism, everything, it kind of, it removes that, like, it takes a village concept, you know?
Whereas what you're suggesting is like we're just injecting a little bit of that back into daily life. And gosh does it feel good. know it feels good you know to be the recipient of that encouragement. And it feels it feels good to be you know part of that and saying hey like you're doing a good job. ⁓ So so talk to me a little bit about that you know that impetus to start this project like one was.
Andrew Stolpestad (08:16)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (08:27)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (08:36)
recognizing the confusion that's around masculinity today, or maybe not so much community, but very strong opinions in and on both sides of the aisle, so to speak. And then in addition to it, like this lack of community, this lack of brotherhood, this isolation, ⁓ what were those kind of like, how did those two pain points kind of.
Andrew Stolpestad (08:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (08:59)
What was the tipping point for you?
Shaun (09:01)
Yeah, you know, it started because I, it's a couple different things. The first one is I would call it a crisis. There's a masculinity crisis in our culture. And the nature of the masculinity crisis in my view, it's got a bunch of reasons for it, which we could talk about, but.
But the nature of it is that a lot of the discourse on the subject is very polarized. And so you have this kind of left-coded message about masculinity that being, having genitalia on the outside of your body is bad. so in being, know, men have had their time and it's time for other people to whatever. And...
Andrew Stolpestad (09:41)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (09:49)
And so, and our boys should be more like girls. And that is a very alienating point of view for those of us who are men. And as a result, a lot of men get driven over to the other side of that spectrum. The only other message they're getting is the right coded message, which is all, no, masculinity is about being an asshole. And you should just embrace everything that everybody says.
Andrew Stolpestad (10:11)
Yeah.
Shaun (10:13)
is bad, you should embrace it. And it's almost like vice signaling as opposed to virtual signaling on the other side. And the fact is that neither of those messages are true. ⁓ And we know that. We know that social media and Twitter and YouTube and all of that stuff are not real life and yet we feel like they are. And we absorb the messages.
Andrew Stolpestad (10:19)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (10:37)
as if they are because our brains are wired in that way. And the algorithms are trying to do that to us. They're trying to polarize us. They're trying to get us mad so that we stick our eyeballs on that screen. That's what their business model is. And so that was part of it. We've got a masculinity crisis that's getting exacerbated by a bunch of cultural forces, not the least of which is social media. There's a second thing. And that's what I mentioned about brotherhood. A couple years ago, my best friend from
Paul (10:41)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (10:49)
Right.
Shaun (11:04)
high school came to me and I was in his wedding, I was the best man at his wedding and he said, you know, I gotta talk to you about something. And I said, well, as long as you're not telling me that you and your wife are getting divorced, we're in good shape. And it was just crickets. I was like, my gosh, what's going on? And he told me, ⁓ we gotta do something about this. We gotta solve the problems, we gotta do all that. And he goes, no, man, the boat sailed, and then he started telling me about the last 10 years of his marriage.
Andrew Stolpestad (11:23)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (11:30)
And it was pretty awful. Like what he experienced was really tough. And I was like, why didn't I know this? Like we've been best friends for 30 years. Why didn't I know any of this stuff? And like I felt betrayed because he didn't share it with me. And then I realized, wait a minute, I haven't shared, like I've got struggles, I've got a bunch of stuff, difficult things I'm going through too. I haven't shared any of that stuff with him.
Andrew Stolpestad (11:35)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (11:56)
So I was pissed off at him for denying me the ability to be a good friend to him. And now I'm pissed off at myself for denying him the ability to be a good friend to me. And I realized that my wife has eight people she shares every detail of her life with. She's got this amazing community and we don't have anybody. Most men don't have anybody that they can talk to. And that's because all of the institutions that used to create brotherhood are crumbling.
Andrew Stolpestad (12:13)
Right.
Paul (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (12:22)
We don't have bowling leagues anymore. We're not going to church anymore. We're not doing all of these things that created that brotherhood for us. And that's, you know, that's there's an opportunity in that, which is we can be intentional about creating those things anymore. We don't have to default to going to church or whatever. But it's also a serious problem because we have to be intentional about it and we have to seek each other out. we men are not wired to do that. They're just not.
Andrew Stolpestad (12:28)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (12:43)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (12:49)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (12:49)
Yeah, yeah, we, when we get together, you know, it's the typical conversations, know, sports, we're out here in the Midwest weather, you know, things like that, like, or how the kids doing or all those like, good, but kind of things outside of us as opposed to like, how are you doing and actually being willing to open up, you know. ⁓
Andrew Stolpestad (12:58)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (13:13)
So the question the question remains or the question is that comes to my mind is like how do we How do we bridge that gap because you know, nobody most men I don't think are gonna want to get like They might be a little turned off by like like I don't want to open up You know, like I don't need to open up like I like I'm doing just fine, you know
Andrew Stolpestad (13:28)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (13:31)
Yeah,
that's actually a, you know, so that is the conventional wisdom. And it's a myth. It is absolutely true that most men don't open up. And so the easy explanation, well, they don't want to. That's not true. Very, very few men.
Andrew Stolpestad (13:36)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (13:46)
will not open up if given the chance. The problem is they don't feel safe. They don't feel like it's masculine. They're not in an environment where they feel like they can open up without negative consequence. And that situation is getting worse also because our lives are increasingly public.
Andrew Stolpestad (13:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (14:07)
they're,
know, like everything's on social media now or whatever. And so that, you know, that data can get out there. you know, Sean was in the corner crying about whatever. And that could be a problem for me. It could be a problem professionally. It could be a problem, you know, in all of these things. And so we just, we have to get over that and we have to create spaces. We have to create safe spaces for our brethren.
Andrew Stolpestad (14:17)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (14:31)
to do that, and if we do, it will happen. I started going to some men's groups recently as part of this exercise, and it's amazing the kinds of stories that come out, and the...
It's not even a pressure. I'm trying to find the right word, but it's like you feel drawn to share your experiences because this other guy is being so generous with his emotional experience as well. And it's intoxicating. It's really it's energizing. And, you know, I mean, there are men's groups all over the place.
Andrew Stolpestad (14:59)
Yeah.
Shaun (15:05)
You you just you gotta you gotta find them. You just gotta go
Andrew Stolpestad (15:09)
Yeah, was, I thank you for bringing that up, because that's something Paul and I have been trying to do as well. And we've noticed, you know, just in a couple of our groups, we've went to, you know, friends of ours going through things that we had no clue about. And I sat there, I'm like, am I a bad friend for not knowing about this? And...
To the second point you brought up, right before we started recording, I was watching a reel and they were just asking guys, when things are dark, who do you call? And everyone said nobody, who would even care to listen to me? And I started reading the comments and it came back to that whole safe space too. like, why would I tell anybody anything if they're just gonna use it against me later on? And...
It blew my mind, like, because one, I didn't think about that aspect of it. And then I started thinking about, obviously, how I'm going to ask you, like, how do you even bring that up to, like, your son? Like, it's OK to, you know, build this type of support for yourself as you get older. Like, how would you how would you address that with with kids to teach them that?
Shaun (16:14)
Yeah, yeah, you know, that
and that's the other paradox. It's again, it's one of those goals you have to approach obliquely. You can't tell him you can't teach it to him. It's not something that happens in words. You have to model it. He has to experience that for himself. He has to experience that safety with you. He has to be able to come to you and and say those things and not feel and he has to be able to be vulnerable without it being without it.
Andrew Stolpestad (16:26)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (16:40)
causing a problem, he has to see you do it with other people as well. He has to see you apologize when you get things wrong, right? And so that's the only way to cultivate it. And after you've done it, and after you've modeled that activity, and after you've said those things, you can then talk about it. You can say, hey, remember that thing, how did you feel after you said that thing to your buddy?
Paul (16:45)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (16:47)
Yeah.
Shaun (17:05)
And but unless you've prepared the ground, it doesn't take effect.
Andrew Stolpestad (17:12)
Mm-hmm. Okay. So really it's the lead by example, example, and not, yeah.
Shaun (17:16)
Yeah, 80 % of it, 80 to 90
% of it is just a lot of what you need to do in order to cultivate excellence in your son is to cultivate excellence in yourself.
Paul (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (17:26)
I gotta write that down. Thank you, Sean. That's a good point.
Paul (17:29)
Yeah, and that makes me think, you know, like so much of parenting really is that, and that might be a little bit of, well, I can speak from my experience, a little bit of a shift from how I was parented versus how we're attempting to parent. And that's where,
trying to do what you're talking about here and that's like convey the message or help them assimilate the message, you know, as opposed to.
⁓ And I am wording this strongly, but like forcing it down their throat, right? Like spoon feeding it, you know? And that's the challenge. How I was raised was like, this is how it is, no ifs, ands, or buts. Why? Because I said so. And I grew up in a very loving home and I'm very grateful for my parents and everything that they have done for me and my siblings. Like, don't get me wrong on that.
But, and they were parenting the best way they knew how, and they were parenting from a place of love. But that is how it came across. And so I didn't really, I didn't buy into it. I did what I was supposed to do because I didn't wanna get into trouble. But yeah, I didn't buy into most of it. that, so what I think, it sounds like what you're proposing is,
It's kind of like, it's the longer and harder path. You might not get the behavior you want initially, but by modeling it and talking them through it and whatever, you are laying the groundwork. So that way, you know, like down the road, all of a sudden that seed that you planted finally blossoms.
Shaun (19:04)
Yeah, you're cultivating a garden. And okay, you can scream at their face and you can say it's my way or the highway and stuff like that. And that's like planting a plastic flower in the garden. And sure enough, there's a flower there. That's fine. But it's not gonna grow into, you know, it's full glory. It's not gonna, the rest of the garden is not gonna populate the rest of the garden with flowers. It's not gonna, it's not, that's not building the garden. That is.
that is sticking a flower in it. so, yeah, mean.
Andrew Stolpestad (19:31)
Yeah.
Shaun (19:35)
There is a time actually to yell at your kid. if my kid were running in the street and I ran along beside him and said, hey, like, what are you thinking about in terms of where you're headed right now? And is this the proper goal of the rest of your life? We're gonna both get run over by the bus. I mean, but the times when that's the right, that's.
Andrew Stolpestad (19:46)
You
Great.
Shaun (19:57)
I have this metaphor I talk about, we've got two brains in our heads. We've got the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. And amygdala is your cone in the barbarian brain. It's reactive. It only feels, it doesn't, and it's very fast. It's just like immediate reaction and all that stuff. And that's what you need when you're jumping out of the way of the bus. But the vast majority of circumstances that we encounter in our modern existence are better served
Andrew Stolpestad (20:11)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (20:25)
the more we can engage our Sherlock Holmes brain, the prefrontal cortex. And it is so hard to stay in the prefrontal cortex. Everything in the world, especially stuff your kids do, want to drop you into that Sherlock Holmes brain. You wanna scream at their face and you just wanna like shut up and get in line and do all that stuff. Sit down and shut up, that kind of way. And that's...
Andrew Stolpestad (20:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (20:48)
It's just never the right thing to do these days. It's almost never the right thing to do.
Andrew Stolpestad (20:51)
Right.
Paul (20:52)
Yeah. And that juxtaposition between Conan the Barbarian and Sherlock Holmes makes me think of probably one of the focal points of the masculinity controversy. that's, you know, on, as you described it, like kind of like the left painted side, it's okay, you know.
Don't be a man, like be more like, yes. And then on the other side is like, it's, know, the alpha male, you know, no pain, no gain, you know, yes. ⁓ But the focal point, I think, is in today's society.
Shaun (21:14)
Yeah, men are bad. Masculinity is easy.
Evil is a virtue. Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (21:24)
Yeah.
Paul (21:30)
Well, let's take it a step back farther. Up until very recently, men were out doing hard things, dangerous things, risky things. And that was from the get go. Hunters and gatherers, men were the ones out hunting largely.
Shaun (21:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Paul (21:49)
So it's kind of built into who we are as men. And so I think today, you know, we feel that lack because there's not like, you know, sitting at a desk, you're not getting a lot of sense of adventure or a lot of risk, you know, or the risk that you're dealing with is on a completely different level. And so I think that that is the kind of the focal point where
there's overcorrection from the evil is good side, as you stated. then on the former side, there's just that significant lack of that. my point is, it's not necessarily correlated.
exactly with the prefrontal cortex, right, with the cone and the barbarian, but that kind of, that urge to do, you know, adventurous, hard, risky things is kind of, is there, and it's not always being scratched, that itch. So how do we find a balance between, okay, yes, we're going to maintain the Sherlock Holmes brain,
But we're also going to make sure that we're answering these needs.
Shaun (23:01)
Yeah, the call of the wild, so to speak. I'm with you. Yeah, well, and by the way, those are those are good things to cultivate in our sons. Right. mean, it is it is valuable to be able to go out in the woods and survive for a weekend. Right. And and that's not because we ever need to do that. I mean, I guess if the assembly apocalypse happened, then those would be important, useful skills. And that could happen. But
Paul (23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (23:13)
yeah.
You
Shaun (23:25)
But it is, it's important to feel self-sufficient. It's important to feel like you are worthy of life's challenges. And that's a good way to do that. you know, I mean, I think that, but it's also important for that to be something real as opposed to performance. And what I see, I see a lot of performance
Andrew Stolpestad (23:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (23:48)
transformative masculinity, especially online. It's doing stupid stuff that is risky, like for the sake of doing the stupid stuff, right? Or for the sake of YouTube views. I have a hard time thinking that that's actual masculinity. And frankly, I I don't know that the idea of masculinity has changed since Marcus Aurelius' time.
Andrew Stolpestad (24:00)
right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (24:14)
It's,
you know, I mean, what we think about as masculinity, I mean, the culture is changing, the requirements of a man have changed. But if you close your eyes and you imagine what you think of as what is a real man? What is the ideal man for me in terms of my values? We're all going to come up with similar things. and a ⁓ lot of and in fact, if we brainstormed about it.
We would get better and better and better and we would drill down and drill down. But these are things like, you know, a man is someone who stands up in a storm, right, and and has compassion for those who fail. That's that's from Douglas MacArthur. And he said that during World War Two. He's, you know, a man is someone who's always serious, but doesn't take himself too seriously. Those things, these are timeless and they apply whether or not, you know, whether we're in a hunter gatherer society where, man, you better go out and you better
Andrew Stolpestad (24:48)
Right.
Shaun (25:08)
better kill that lion with a club or we all starve to death. Or, you know, we're in our modern society where we're pretty removed from those life or death struggles. And now it's more about creating a safe emotional space for your family so that they can thrive.
Andrew Stolpestad (25:23)
Paul, your... Evy's here?
Paul (25:23)
Say hi.
Shaun (25:24)
We got a dog back
now. Hello. Hello, sweet girl.
Paul (25:27)
you
Andrew Stolpestad (25:28)
You
Paul (25:29)
⁓ here.
They said hi.
Shaun (25:31)
How are you doing?
Paul (25:35)
What did you find?
Shaun (25:33)
Yeah? Are you having a great day?
Andrew Stolpestad (25:34)
Hahaha
Shaun (25:36)
You get to hug your dad? look at that. Are those acorns or walnuts? Those are walnuts. Wow. Those are enormous walnuts.
Paul (25:39)
No!
Are
we gonna roast them up? Okay, mom's calling you, okay? You wanna wrangle the dogs?
Shaun (25:48)
That sounds amazing.
Andrew Stolpestad (25:49)
You
Paul (25:54)
All right, today's intermission brought to you by Evy. ⁓
Shaun (25:55)
I love that.
I love it. And you know,
there's
Andrew Stolpestad (26:00)
You ⁓
Shaun (26:01)
non-zero possibility that that exact same interruption is going to happen for me. My daughter might come walking up those stairs any minute now.
Paul (26:06)
Ha
that's awesome.
Andrew Stolpestad (26:10)
We're a Dad Podcast and we welcome all those Dad moments.
Shaun (26:14)
That's right.
That's right. That's a hazard.
Andrew Stolpestad (26:16)
Right? So going back to...
Paul (26:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead Andrew, sorry for the interruption.
Andrew Stolpestad (26:23)
You know, something you said, coming up with the ideal man for us, and us as grown men, as dads, as uncles, how do we help our sons figure that out? Where do we start that conversation with them? What's the type of man you want to be? Or how do you help them to understand the right masculinity in that sense?
Shaun (26:43)
Yeah, I think it starts, I mean, the very first, again, we have to lay the groundwork. And so how do we lay the groundwork? It's the same. We have to model it for our kids. We have to get our boys, and this is true. This is true regardless of who the parent is, whether you're a single parent or you've got two parents in the household or whatever. You need your boys to spend time around worthy men. Now, if you are a worthy man, then...
then you get at least one by default. And if you have a bunch of friends that are also worthy men and you have your boy spend time with you and those friends, there's a bunch more. If you're a single mom, it is tremendously important. You have to be intentional about seeking this stuff out because young men who are children of divorce,
Andrew Stolpestad (27:14)
Right.
Shaun (27:34)
have much worse outcomes than women who are children of divorce. And those worse outcomes go away if the men have a male role model in the house. And so it is just tremendously important that young men have, especially by the time they turn 12 or 13 years old, I had a guest who is just an amazing fatherhood.
author named Steve Biddulph, and he cited a bunch of research for me about when young men are turning 12 and 13 and 14, that's when they start looking outside the home for their examples. And you want them to be able to find worthy examples of masculinity out there in the wild. Otherwise, they're gonna seek them out themselves, they're gonna go on YouTube and they're gonna find what they're gonna find on YouTube.
Andrew Stolpestad (28:18)
Right.
Yeah.
Shaun (28:22)
And
that's not a good place for them to be. And so it starts with that. need to supply a supply of worthy men for your son to experience. The more he just needs to be able to absorb it. And again, we used to get that. We used to...
Andrew Stolpestad (28:41)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (28:45)
We used to get that in our bowling leagues, in our churches, and all of those things. And so we have to seek it out, and we have to make it happen. And by the way, can have, like sports is a real, is a really good shortcut for this sort of thing. Because sports, you're gonna, know, and especially in the older ages, the sports are segregated by gender.
Andrew Stolpestad (28:56)
Yeah.
Shaun (29:06)
And so, you your boy is gonna be with a lot of other boys and, you know, it's the fathers are usually gonna be there. And so, you know, let's go hang out and like at basketball practice, right? So that's a pretty good shortcut for that sort of thing. But, you know, it doesn't have to be sports. If your kid's not into sports, mean, can, you know, there's other ways to make that happen, but you gotta be intentional about that. And then once...
Andrew Stolpestad (29:12)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (29:31)
you're kind of bathed in that, you can start having the discussion. Well, you know, what do you think about, what do you think about that? What do you think about, you know, are there any girls you're interested in having those sorts of conversations, right? You know, once they get old enough. I'm not there yet. So I have a lot less wisdom than I think a lot of other people would on that. I'm still in those early stages. My boy's only seven. So it's a little bit easier for me so far.
Andrew Stolpestad (29:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, you hear like all the stories going to the sports one of like pro athletes who Come from like a family of divorce or even inspiring sports stories in general where the coach was that male figure that role model on how to be a real man and
Paul (29:57)
Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (30:12)
even when they make pro or whatever, they still call their high school coach to ask like, I need advice on this or I needs help with that. And so, yeah, I agree with you sport being a real quick shortcut if the kids into sports, because that can have a long lasting impact.
Paul (30:26)
Yeah, and it strikes me, Sean, that also like, you mentioned getting involved in men's groups around you, like, that's probably another way to connect with men or surround yourself with men who are intentional because I think it's kind of written into the description there, like people who are doing that, like they're trying to be better men, better fathers, better husbands.
Shaun (30:46)
self-selecting group of
people who trying to make themselves better.
Paul (30:50)
Yeah, and maybe even I'm just kind of brainstorming here, maybe even being intentional about like your group of friends, you know, like, are they good influences, maybe spend more time with those who are who drive you to be a better person or who are good for your kids or I don't know.
I don't know if you have anything else to add, any other ways for our listeners.
Shaun (31:18)
Yeah, I think those are the two main ways. I think there's a third component too, which is family. You know, Andrew, you're an uncle. It sounds like you spend a lot of kids around, or a lot of time around your nieces and nephews. I mean, that's also another source, right? And it could be a source for good or for bad. You can have the uncle who's not a great ⁓ role model and maybe you limit.
Andrew Stolpestad (31:25)
Good job.
Right.
Shaun (31:39)
maybe you limit exposure, but not necessarily. think, you know, I have, I've known of kids or I've had friends that have had, you know, where their uncle is not really the kind of man that they should be and spending time around that person, you know, he's the cool uncle.
Andrew Stolpestad (31:54)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (32:01)
when they're 15 and by the time they're 19, it's like, wait a minute, this guy doesn't have a job and he's sleeping on someone's couch every day. And like, that's not necessarily, like, maybe I wanna borrow some of the things that he has, but not some of the other things. so, know, negative examples are not necessarily a problem ⁓ if they're framed.
Andrew Stolpestad (32:02)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (32:24)
properly and if there are a sufficient number of positive examples to be able to draw the appropriate distinctions. so I think, so that's one thing I would add, I would have family as well.
Paul (32:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (32:37)
I... I can't help it.
Paul (32:37)
Oh, I was just going to say that's a great point. It makes me think of a quote I heard today where you prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child, where if you're trying to kind of protect them from everything, all bad influences, all negative influences,
Andrew Stolpestad (32:58)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (32:59)
you're kind of doing that you're kind of preparing the road for the child but then when they actually get on the road you know they're going to run over because they they don't notice step out of the way of of ⁓ oncoming vehicle so but yet that that quote was from ⁓ actually i don't know i'll have to share that in the notes so
Shaun (33:13)
I love it.
Andrew Stolpestad (33:14)
Hahaha
Shaun (33:15)
I would push back on it a little bit because there's a tension. And so you also have to clear the road of the landmines and there are landmines out there. And so you have to do a little preparation of the road. my, know, and I don't know that I have all the answers on this stuff. I'm just like you guys. I'm a fricking idiot dad trying to figure this out as he goes along. of the reasons, one of the things I realized is,
Paul (33:23)
Yes.
Andrew Stolpestad (33:35)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (33:37)
man, my reflexes, the stuff I grew up with 50 years ago, they're maladaptive to our modern world and I need to talk to people who are really smart and I need to make friends with people who are also struggling with this stuff so that I can get the best result for my kids. But yeah, what I'm saying is there's a tension there and there's a little bit of road preparation that you gotta do. You're not gonna make him hack his own way through the jungle initially.
You'll forge a little bit of a path, but you don't shy away from difficulty. Difficulty is where the growth happens. Failure is where excellence happens, right? And so, you know, mean, there's that tension. And my own attitude is if he's not gonna incur permanent damage, then I'll just let him do the thing.
Paul (34:09)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Stolpestad (34:10)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (34:25)
And
if he is gonna incur permanent damage, then no, it's just a no. That's it, that's my rule. And so, you know, if he wants to climb on the rocks and he's gonna fall down and maybe hurt himself, I don't, you know, he's not, I don't think he's gonna break something. If he broke something, then it would be, wouldn't allow that to happen. But, you know, I don't mind a sprained ankle here and there and stuff like that. mean, being a kid can hurt sometimes, that's okay.
Andrew Stolpestad (34:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
There's that and then with my my two nephews like sometimes with conflict resolution I apply what I Apply what you do to with with my niece and nephews like if if they're having fun and there's no danger of loss of life or limb or something like that then You know life when you get old is hard. You got to learn when you're young too that You make mistakes and you realize I'm not gonna do that again
But with the conflict resolution, like the two little ones will just duke it out. And one time my mom came and was like, you're going to stop it? And I'm like, there's no blood yet.
Shaun (35:22)
Yeah,
exactly. So this is I mean, I'll bring up Steve Biddle again. And by the way, I mean, just read everything that Steve Biddle has ever written. It is it is beautiful. It is it's just absolutely fantastic. But one of the things that he talks about is that wrestling is a sign of love. It is an expression of love. Wrestling and roughhousing and all of that is part of the way that men show love to each other.
Andrew Stolpestad (35:46)
Mm.
Shaun (35:46)
yeah, no we don't shut that down. mean throwing punches, different deal. But just roughhousing, even if it's angry roughhousing, that's love for boys.
Andrew Stolpestad (35:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Paul (35:57)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (35:58)
And women don't get that. By the way, women don't get it. It's scary for women. They don't do that stuff. If you ever seen women fight, they. It's deadly. Women will kill each other and men like even even strangers, men will will will will fight and neither of will get hurt all that much. And I mean, that's not always the case and men should never fight physically, but it does happen. But boys, yeah, let them.
Andrew Stolpestad (36:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Paul (36:16)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (36:22)
Man, it's a good thing. I'll ref house with my boy, a lot.
Andrew Stolpestad (36:24)
Mm-hmm.
⁓
I'll get on the floor and go around or two with the nephews.
Shaun (36:31)
Yeah.
One of my sayings around the house is ⁓ mama for comfort, daddy for body slams.
Andrew Stolpestad (36:38)
I love
that. But what you said just had me thinking, just reflecting, like all my closest friends in life have been someone that at one point, I've just had like horrible arguments or disagreements and then you settle it with a beer at the bar or whatever right after it's over and...
Shaun (36:52)
Yeah.
Andrew Stolpestad (36:59)
I've never been closer to like any other guys like we've always had just butting heads like that and then we yeah that bond that relationship that friendship and brotherhood really deepened after all that we've gone through through the dark time together and we know we can stand that
Shaun (37:14)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's part of what forges that bond. And so yeah, it's a good thing to let that happen.
Andrew Stolpestad (37:23)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (37:24)
Yeah, well, great stuff. We've covered a lot here. I know we still have a little bit of time, but I want to allow time for our rapid questions and then a wrap up because I know that always takes us a while with our Minnesota goodbyes.
Shaun (37:39)
Put me on the spot, I'm nervous.
Andrew Stolpestad (37:40)
Hahaha
Paul (37:41)
Don't worry, we'll get a hot dish to you somehow. So, okay, so rapid fire questions. The questions are rapid fire. Each of them, each can be an episode of themselves. But yeah, just give us a one or two sentence answer. And yeah, I think we'll have some fun here.
⁓ What does being a good dad look like to you?
Shaun (38:00)
The metaphor, well, you said a one or two sentence answer, so I'll avoid trying to get into a big story. Yeah. The metaphor that I like to use is our responsibility is to create a castle. And when you think about a castle, think about, lot of what people think about is how strong the walls are. The barbarians are gonna come for us and we don't want them to be able to get through. And...
Paul (38:04)
As best as you can.
Andrew Stolpestad (38:19)
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (38:23)
That was a lot more important a thousand years ago than it is today. Today, the more important component of the castle is how much area it encompasses. Your job as a father is to create a safe space for your family to thrive. And so the bigger that that area is, the more secure that that area is, the better your family is able to thrive.
And that's it. It is real easy to get caught up in your own shit. It's real easy to let your ego get in the way. like I was at basketball and I start to get mad because my son's got his hands in his pockets because he doesn't know what to do. And I think it's his failure, not mine. And so I start getting mad and that, in fact, when we, the end of that story when I showed him those videos and we had this nice conversation about, here's what you did great and here's what you.
what you could have done better, he said to me, and this is a testament to my own failures as a father with him, he said, are you mad at me? And I said, no, boy, how are you supposed to know any of this stuff? Like, nobody's taught you this. I'm mad at myself that I haven't taught it to you. Like, I want you to succeed here. I want you to love this game. And I, you know, like,
Andrew Stolpestad (39:22)
Right.
Shaun (39:32)
I just, need to figure out a way to get this information to you so you know what you're doing. But he was worried that I was gonna be mad, because he wasn't already good. How did I convey that to him? That's an example, that's a counter example of what I'm talking about. That's not safe. The basketball court wasn't a safe place for him to fail, because he was afraid, because I had so much freaking ego wrapped up in that.
You gotta not do that, right? You gotta keep, I mean, your job is security. And you know what, I do a lot of things really well. In terms of that, don't yell and scream and I don't hit or any of those things. But yeah, that's what I think being a good dad is.
Paul (39:57)
Yeah
Yeah.
And I love that metaphor. you know, I, I also hear from you, Sean, in this example, and then throughout this episode is like, you are being extremely intentional and you're thinking about those things. Like, for example, this story where you're sharing as a shortcoming of yours, like you're thinking, okay, like this is what I could have done differently. And this is what I will do differently next time. And I mean, I think that's going to.
that is going to manifest itself to your kids as well. Like you're showing, okay, yeah, I don't have it figured out now or I've got these shortcomings now, but I'm not gonna just leave it at that. And then you're also focusing on the things that you are good, which is, so.
Shaun (40:53)
Yeah.
How else are they supposed to learn that it's okay to struggle? It's okay not to be good at things. You're not gonna be good at things when you start doing things.
Andrew Stolpestad (40:59)
Right.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that anecdote too, because that's something that as you were telling me that story, it brought back this memory of when I was in my 20s and I had a similar conversation with my dad about that. And I asked him the same question because I.
Paul (41:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, go ahead, Andrew.
Andrew Stolpestad (41:21)
Was living on the East Coast and I decided I wanted to move back to Minnesota. Things didn't work out for me out there. I called my dad right away and I just said, I need to come home. This isn't me out here. It was more like, are you okay with that? And he picked up on it and he said, and...
he what he told me like will always stick with me it's like he's he he just asked me it's like are you happy out there or is that is are you sure what you're doing is for your for your own happiness and peace and well-being or making someone else happy and i had to answer you know no this is this is me he's like then i'm happy because if you're happy i'm happy
Paul (41:58)
Thanks for sharing that, Andrew. Yeah, there's a lot more that can be said about all this. You know, Sean, like I said.
Andrew Stolpestad (42:02)
Right?
Shaun (42:02)
Like you said, well, let's
do a quick fire question with a bunch of questions that could be 45 minute episodes in and of themselves.
Andrew Stolpestad (42:06)
Hahaha
Paul (42:09)
Yup, like I said.
Andrew Stolpestad (42:09)
He did caveat that with our
Minnesota nature, so.
Shaun (42:12)
That's right.
Paul (42:13)
Okay, next one. What is the number one
habit that helps you show up as a dad?
Shaun (42:17)
I'll tell you what I'm working on now. And that is, I just interviewed a guest and there were a couple of things that really stuck out for me. And one of them was that he had this amazing, and there was another guest that was like this too, an ex-Navy SEAL named Eric Davis. And...
I was blown away by this. He had...
an extreme facility with definitions. And it's a crazy superpower to have. But it's really interesting if you ask somebody, go around and just in the journal of pulmonary, say what's masculinity? Or what's fatherhood? Or what's brotherhood? Or what's passion? Or what's leadership? Or any of those things, these kind of vague terms, you're gonna get.
a mealy-mouthed answer for most people. They're gonna hem and, well, know, leadership is when blah, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And you ask this guy, and he was like, no, leadership is the experience of, he's got it absolutely nailed down.
And I think having that clarity of vision, having those things, having thought about, no wait, this is what masculinity is to me. And it's not a mealy-mouth thing. Masculinity is this, or whatever the thing is. As much as you can nail down and you can define and you can say, no, no, this is what it is.
Andrew Stolpestad (43:31)
Yeah.
Shaun (43:41)
And then you get those definitions established before you start talking. When you sit down and you talk to your son, no, no, no. We do not behave that way because in our world, we don't hit or hurt in this family and this is why we do that because this is the thing. You need to be clear-eyed about that. And so I think that's probably the number one thing. But it's also something that I'm not particularly good at, as you noticed. I didn't have a concise example of a good definition that I could even give you in this description.
And so it's something that I'm actively working
Andrew Stolpestad (44:08)
You're on mute,
Shaun (44:09)
You're muted,
Paul (44:10)
Thank you. You're not reading lips. not your habit. Number one habit. Yeah. But that's what these podcasts are for too, right? Like Raising Men and Why Dad like to kind of help us and help other men to come up with those definitions, to ask those questions and come up with those definitions.
Shaun (44:25)
That's right, that's right. I'm struggling with them,
just as everybody else is.
Andrew Stolpestad (44:30)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (44:31)
Yes, yes. Amen to that. Andrew, think the next one's on you.
Andrew Stolpestad (44:34)
So, you already answered one of my normal questions that I have and that was when you brought up the point about family and you know being that good role model and uncle so we get to skip one of my questions. My second question I ask this to every guest whether they're a dad or spiring dad or whatever their situation is. What advice do you have for me who's not a dad to
or anyone in my situation, single, that wants to be a dad. What's one key piece that you've taken from your life on that and you wish you could tell Sean before he was a dad?
Shaun (45:10)
Think.
Yeah, that's actually two different questions. And so I'm going to answer the second one first, which is what what do I wish I could go back in time and tell my my former self? I would it's another it's another one of these tension things. I would tell him. That you're nowhere near is you're nowhere near as prepared. As you think you are. For this.
Andrew Stolpestad (45:13)
Yeah
Shaun (45:32)
That's one side of the tension. But the other side of the tension is you're gonna do frickin' great. It's all about the effort. And 90 % of it is just showing up. And the remaining 10%, you'll get it figured out. So that's what I would tell myself.
Andrew Stolpestad (45:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shaun (45:54)
What I would tell you, or an aspiring dad, especially somebody who has young men in their life that aren't their own kids, is you have a privileged position. You have an opportunity to have a particular degree of trust and a particular type of relationship with your nephews that his parents will never have.
Andrew Stolpestad (46:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Shaun (46:16)
and you can say things to them that will be accepted in ways, their parents, their father can come and say, well, you you should think about this, you this is what, you need to go to college because X, Y, and Z. And you can come in and say the exact same thing. You need to go to college between X, Y, and Z and it will sound true coming from you and it will sound like a manipulation coming from their dad.
Andrew Stolpestad (46:30)
Right.
the order. ⁓
Shaun (46:39)
You have a privileged position
and you should respect that and you should use it and you should revel in it. It's exciting and it's awesome. like just bask in it, it's fricking cool.
Andrew Stolpestad (46:50)
I will. Thank you,
Paul (46:52)
Awesome. Thank you for sharing, Sean. One more question. Where can people find you?
Shaun (46:56)
Yeah, so the podcast is called Raising Men and we're on YouTube and Spotify and Apple Podcasts and all the places. We've got a website at Raising.Men and you can always reach out to me at podcast at Raising.Men. I love to hear from people, ask questions, whatever I can do to be of service. That's the whole game right there.
Paul (47:19)
Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sean. Thank you for your time. We covered a lot today. We covered the differing opinions on what masculinity is, the very polarizing opinions, and what we think it actually is. And we talked about how we, first of all, first and foremost, need to show up and model.
what it is to be men to our kids and a lot of other juicy tidbits in there as well. So thank you for your time, for sharing your experience and knowledge with us. And I think our listeners will get a lot out of it because I know I did. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning into the Why Dad podcast.
Andrew Stolpestad (47:57)
Yes.
Shaun (48:01)
Thank you, gentlemen.
Andrew Stolpestad (48:02)
Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Paul. Thank you all.
Paul (48:05)
All right, until next time.